Gahh, I love putting pictures on here...

I get the feeling that the book only incorporates their lives up until they're young adults, like in their early 20's.

Also, I think their behavior is a little immature some of the time, so they might seem a little younger than they are. I think Maggie was about 12 when she pushed Lucy into the mud.

It's kind of like Wuthering Heights, in the sense that Cathy seemed a lot younger than she was for a long time.



I like the ORANGE. Y'know, just a thought, we MIGHT could just color-code our posts :S


--ALLIEEEEE

Oh, a quick note on the side...

Is anybody else having some issues determining exactly how old Tom and Maggie are? Seriously, maybe I missed some definite figures somewhere in the book but in years how old are they?

--Gina Sposto

The Jam Puff Incident or Jealousy and Maturity

I saw that quote on Allie's post and thought a bit about it -

“Maggie, thinking it was no use to contend further, began too, and ate up her half-puff with considerable relish as well as rapidity. But Tom had finished first, and had to look on while Maggie ate her last morsel or two, feeling in himself a capacity for more. Maggie didn’t know Tom was looking at her: she was seesawing on the elder bough, lost to almost everything but a vague sense of jam and idleness.”

Y'know, it's sort of funny but Glennis (my little sister) and I have had similar situations to the Jam Puff Incident in our past...

Say we had baked a cake, and there were two spoons full of batter to lick - one considerably larger than the other. It was difficult when we were young and immature to decide who got which, and sometimes we would attempt to be noble little darlings and offer the other the tastier spoon. We'd then ask each other, "What, are you suuuure I can have it? Really, like, you can have it it's okay oh whatever if you're really sure well wow gee this is tasty I'm only sorry you gave it to me and I would share it with you only cooties etc."

When one finally got the other, there would always be a slight pang of regret in the 'unselfish' one. And of course we would Josh and call each other "pigs." There was slight, immature jealousy, and the reason it was immature? (Well, jealousy is a trait of the immature anyhow, but...) It was a trifling thing we were worrying about.

See, now if something like that were to happen - Say we bake a cake now and there are two spoons - My sister and I are more mature now. We wouldn't fight over the batter or get all passive-agressive with the frosting. It is a sign of maturity, I think (and even though this is such a small example that it may seem very silly to you to even compare it to such an important theme as maturity) to let go of worry over trifling things for instant gratification and small instances of personal gain.

It's a sign of maturity, that is, to let your sister have the bigger pastry puff and genuinely not worry yourself about it.

But see, that's the thing about young children - little things mean the world to kids, because what does their life consist of? They play and they go to school etc etc - they don't have much in the way of a sense of the world and they're more concerned with the now - what's going on in their environment at any one moment in time. (a reason that children are more "in tune" with their surroundings, or at least are viewed that way.) They're innocent. They are not preoccupied with heavy subjects and they aren't preoccupied with their futures. The fear hasn't been instilled quite yet. They want instant gratification and they want to have fun and be appreciated, and that is it. It's all very zen, yeah?

All this rambling, all this rambling, and I haven't even gotten to the point yet. What I'm basically trying to prove is that George Eliot is making some sorta statement about maturity in The Mill on the Floss. Maggie and Tom, at this point, aren't mature, and I think that it's pretty cool that Eliot's actually making the effort to distinguish them as children. She really tries to capture the essence of being uncertain and jealous and immature and innocent. Maturity, I think, is a major theme here.

Also, I detect a little bit of irony in the association between superficial social values - something entirely silly and sometimes quite petty; something sometimes inspiring jealousy over trifles and material things - and maturity. Oh, dear, everything goes on and on.

I have a lot more homework to do at this strange hour, so I'll leave my post with this:

Grown-ups let their sister have the bigger beater.

Peace out, boy scout!
--Gina Sposto

A Couple of Quotes...

“It is a wonderful subduer, this need of love—this hunger of the heart—as peremptory as that other hunger by which Nature forces us to submit to the yoke, and change the face of the world.”

• This passage describes Maggie’s need for love, and how it affects her.

“Maggie, thinking it was no use to contend further, began too, and ate up her half-puff with considerable relish as well as rapidity. But Tom had finished first, and had to look on while Maggie ate her last morsel or two, feeling in himself a capacity for more. Maggie didn’t know Tom was looking at her: she was seesawing on the elder bough, lost to almost everything but a vague sense of jam and idleness.”

• This excerpt from the text shows how Maggie and Tom have a considerable amount of sibling rivalry, as well as a kind of jealousy towards one another.

These two quotes seem to stand out to me especially, because they seem to show the weaknesses of both Maggie and Tom. They both can get extremely jealous of one another, but at the same time, are the very best of friends.

--Allie

Ms. Blatti Reactions...

Hi girls, I love your blog! Witty, insightful, playful and thorough, your blog is entertaining and educational! I actually really liked the screen shot of the IM conversation; your abilty to go back and forth the way that you did on the issue of Maggie's education was really thought provoking. I also like your honesty. For instance, let's revisit Gina's comment:

I’ll probably get more “into” it as the story progresses. I mean, reading this vs. Wuthering Heights is like taking a big bite out of dark double chocolate cake vs. licking a chocolate chip cookie. Well, that’s a bit exaggerated, but you get my drift.

Very funny and original. I appreciate the comparisons to Wuthering Heights and I can promise that you will be more "into" the storyline as Maggie matures and grows into her adult relationships. Stick with it. And, keep up the upbeat, insightful, and witty tone of your blog. Nice work! I look forward to the next posting. Bye! I have to go floss now :-)

A fantastic discussion

Here we've been discussing the story so far... Thought I'd post it.

Gina N. Sposto has joined the chat.
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Alexandra D. Watkins has joined the chat.
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Staten L. Smith has joined the chat.
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Alexandra D. Watkins[10:55:42 AM]: Will Maggie and Tom's good frienship falter because fo Tom's access to education and Maggie's lack thereof?

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Gina N. Sposto[10:56:00 AM]: It will falter, of course, because Tom will have to make the trek to a distant, scholarly land...
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Gina N. Sposto[10:56:21 AM]: And of course their relationship will change after that... I mean, despite their differences they are very close.
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Gina N. Sposto[10:57:10 AM]: With an education that he may find challenging in a bad way, he could grow to envy Maggie's natural intelligence and attempt to quash her enthusiasm
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Gina N. Sposto[10:57:25 AM]: or force her into a "woman's" role
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Gina N. Sposto[10:57:44 AM]: I dunno.
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Alexandra D. Watkins[10:59:28 AM]: Maggie's role is expected to be that of a 19th century housewife. Tom is expected for much greater things. Would you say, in Victorian England, that educated women were deemed unattractive, and might this affect Maggie's future?
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Gina N. Sposto[11:01:08 AM]: Perhaps... She won't be educated at the same level as her brother, but I don't know. Women were expected, probably, to be docile but at the same time sensible... I don't think that stupid women were attractive but then again neither were those who knew "too much for their own good." Maggie doesn't fit the mold anyhow. She's unnaturally dark (like me! hooray for brunettes!) and a contrast between light and dark (in terms of attractiveness) may arise.
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Staten L. Smith[11:01:14 AM]: Yes, women of that times role was to get married, take care of kids, and make the food. If she is not attractive and is really smart then she has two things working against her.
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Gina N. Sposto[11:01:33 AM]: I disagree in terms of intelligence working against her
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Gina N. Sposto[11:01:43 AM]: but it could result in some tragic sort of situation for her
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Gina N. Sposto[11:01:50 AM]: i mean, an internal tragedy
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Gina N. Sposto[11:02:05 AM]: she'll be denied the chance to live up to her potential
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Alexandra D. Watkins[11:02:48 AM]: When the man who comes to their house finds that she is reeding books, her father becomes embarrased and sends her to her mother.
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Gina N. Sposto[11:02:50 AM]: Here's that quote you asked for... "That's what brings folks to the gallows—knowin' everything but what they'n got to get their bread by."
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Gina N. Sposto[11:03:19 AM]: wait which question are we on now?
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Staten L. Smith[11:03:22 AM]: men didnt want a smart women because she would cause trouble
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Gina N. Sposto[11:03:38 AM]: i don't think smartness is the right idea though
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Gina N. Sposto[11:03:49 AM]: maybe they didn't want a woman who would know too much... but one can know a lot and still
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Gina N. Sposto[11:03:51 AM]: be stupid
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Gina N. Sposto[11:03:56 AM]: though her intelligence is the "bookish" kind
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Staten L. Smith[11:03:57 AM]: i think it is
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Gina N. Sposto[11:04:02 AM]: either way
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Alexandra D. Watkins[11:04:17 AM]: Well, Maggie (to me at least) seems somewhat excessively concerned with pleasing her brother. In many ways I think she is somewhat effected by the social norms of the time.
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Gina N. Sposto[11:04:41 AM]: I thought of that as sort of... I dunno, she admires her brother, certainly
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Gina N. Sposto[11:04:45 AM]: because he *is* her big brother
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Gina N. Sposto[11:04:48 AM]: her role model
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Gina N. Sposto[11:04:56 AM]: and he possesses a different kind of intelligence than she
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Gina N. Sposto[11:05:08 AM]: so she admires what she doesn't have
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Gina N. Sposto[11:05:33 AM]: and aspires to it, perhaps... especially because tom's academic attempts would be praised more heavily than her own
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Staten L. Smith[11:05:38 AM]: we are doing this all wrong
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Gina N. Sposto[11:05:40 AM]: naw
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Staten L. Smith[11:05:43 AM]: yes
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Gina N. Sposto[11:05:45 AM]: i think we're making progress

I agree with both Gina and Allie. In these beginging chapters the reader is really able to focus on the relationships between Maggie and Tom. Maggie and Tom both differ in their educational values and oppurtinities. Tom is not as naturally smart as Maggie but he does have a strong sence of practical outdoors knowledge. At a young age maggie is reading adult books. Mr. Riley even tells her she shouldn't be reading these books. Mr. and Mrs. Tulliver really want Tom to get a very good education, because he is a male. Maggie's knowlege is brushed off and considered a bad thing. In the family Maggie is looked down upon as the smart, ugly child. When with Mrs. Tulliver, Mrs. Glegg disscusses Maggie's unsuitable qualities. One wonders how all of these negative opinions of Maggie will make her feel and if she will try to change herself in order to please those around her.
-Staten Smith

Tom And Maggie - Two Very Different Peas In One Victorian Pod

Tom and Maggie on their most basic levels are completely different, their personalities being defined by their types of intelligence. Tom possesses a practical, natural sense of the world. He enjoys being outdoors and understanding the world in a physical way. Maggie, on the other hand, is a creative, passionate individual who (as far as I can infer) easily gets carried away in her emotions and imaginings. A person like Tom, one can reason, learns by doing and experiencing. A person like Maggie learns through scholarly work. The attitude toward the siblings (pertaining to education) results in a certain level of irony; Maggie is denied the education that fits her mind, while Tom is a square peg forced into a round hole. The result is bound to be failure for each, but I shall keep an open mind and see how the story unfolds.

I’ve gotta say, though – so far I’m not too keen on this book. It’s a little bit densely worded and the organization is unique. I’ll probably get more “into” it as the story progresses. I mean, reading this vs. Wuthering Heights is like taking a big bite out of dark double chocolate cake vs. licking a chocolate chip cookie. Well, that’s a bit exaggerated, but you get my drift. I look forward to the rest of the book!

-- Gina Sposto


Early on in the book, one has quite different feelings concerning both Maggie and Tom’s ancestry. Though they grow up very close to one another, their outlooks on life remain quite different. Maggie, though growing up in a highly patriarchal society, always seems to keep an open mind about her role in the world. Maggie, showing more of a likeness to the Tulliver family, is messy, wild, and very spirited. Tom, however, has a great sense of right and wrong, and is very aimed towards justice. His education means very much to the family, as he is a boy, and will be expected to get a job in business. Maggie’s pursuit of knowledge is seen as embarrassing by her father, and she is discouraged from reading. Even her good friend, Luke the miller, sees education as dangerous, saying, "That's what brings folks to the gallows—knowin' everything but what they'n got to get their bread by."

As Maggie and Tom seem to begin their childhood on a similar level, they are torn apart by Tom’s obligation to be sent away to school, and Maggie’s obligation to stay home and cross-stitch, which she rejects. I will be interested to observe the interaction between the two children as Tom is pushed higher and higher into society, while Maggie is left to pine for a life in which she can be able to be treated as an equal. Will their good friendship falter? Will Tom begin to treat Maggie with the same prejudices common to the times?

-- Allie Watkins